Well written. Perhaps what they’re seeking also is awe and reverence. Sanctity. We have often lost this in our churches. Mystery and unknowing. I grew up Roman Catholic in Rome and when I first began going to a non-denominational church I was shocked by the absence of this.
I said something similar a few years ago to a father whose son has gone to the Orthodox Church. A sense of sacredness is something these churches and traditions do well. I think it something the younger generation craves.
Yes I agree. They engage all of our senses and this is an important facet. Taste and see that the Lord He is good! For example, the reason the ceilings are so high and painted is to remind us to lift our eyes to God as posture. To behold the beauty of the Lord not just decoration but posture. Many other examples but it’s a very different presence from arriving for worship where it feels like an indoor barbecue gathering of sorts. I had to learn the “things” were not the main thing but I do see now how they can remind us to carry a posture of purpose and presence.
I appreciate your article and look forward to reading your upcoming related ones. I know a preacher in our fellowship who is somewhat infatuated with the Orthodox Church. One of the things he likes his their adherence to handed-down tradition. When I pushed back that Jesus had only negative things to say about the way Jewish leaders of His day had used tradition to set aside God's Word, he responded by referencing Paul in 2 Thess 2:15, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" and 1 Cor 11:2, "Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you."
One verse comes to mind that a friend who left for the Orthodox tradition brought up to me a while back that, while it does not conflict with your points here, may be difficult for many to wrestle with and reconcile with the idea that scripture alone is the end stop for authority. In 1 Timothy 3:15, Paul commissions Timothy to get the church in order because it is "the pillar and foundation of truth" - The church, not the scriptures, is the foundation of truth here. Similarly, in Ephesians 4 it is the divinely gifted teachers, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, elders, and teachers, who guide and equip the saints - the church leaders, not scripture, is given for the equipping of the saints and teaching in knowledge and growth in unity.
Now, the meta look at this is to see that these commissions and guidelines for the church and church leaders are conveyed through scripture. That's important. But there does seem to be an important authoritative role given to the church itself in these things. Our Catholic and Orthodox friends readily accept scripture, but they see these passages about church authority and give a place of importance to that. On the other hand, the "every man and his Bible" approach of Protestantism and the Restoration that grew out of the Enlightenment (the same Enlightenment that grants authority to the governed through Rationalism, and props up divisive and revolutionary moves of leaving, either nation of church tradition, when the system no longer serves as the people think is right) - that individual approach to interpretation and teaching largely discredits any authority that the church has in favor of the written word.
I'm not yet sure what it is or at least how to articulate it, but there seems to be a middle ground we are missing.
I'd love if you could on this facet of the issue in this series.
Harris..Hope all is well where you are. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to draw, and you've identified what may be the strongest text on that side of the question. 1 Timothy 3:15 is honestly a better argument for church authority than Matthew 16, because the passage can’t get you to the Roman church on its own.
Now, back to 1 Timothy 3:15. Watch the metaphor: a pillar upholds and displays what it carries — it doesn't author the inscription. And Paul makes the statement in a letter of written instructions to the church. The pillar gets its orders in writing. I will have more on it in writing to come.
Really looking forward to this series!
Well written. Perhaps what they’re seeking also is awe and reverence. Sanctity. We have often lost this in our churches. Mystery and unknowing. I grew up Roman Catholic in Rome and when I first began going to a non-denominational church I was shocked by the absence of this.
I said something similar a few years ago to a father whose son has gone to the Orthodox Church. A sense of sacredness is something these churches and traditions do well. I think it something the younger generation craves.
Yes I agree. They engage all of our senses and this is an important facet. Taste and see that the Lord He is good! For example, the reason the ceilings are so high and painted is to remind us to lift our eyes to God as posture. To behold the beauty of the Lord not just decoration but posture. Many other examples but it’s a very different presence from arriving for worship where it feels like an indoor barbecue gathering of sorts. I had to learn the “things” were not the main thing but I do see now how they can remind us to carry a posture of purpose and presence.
I appreciate your article and look forward to reading your upcoming related ones. I know a preacher in our fellowship who is somewhat infatuated with the Orthodox Church. One of the things he likes his their adherence to handed-down tradition. When I pushed back that Jesus had only negative things to say about the way Jewish leaders of His day had used tradition to set aside God's Word, he responded by referencing Paul in 2 Thess 2:15, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" and 1 Cor 11:2, "Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you."
Sorely needed. Looking forward to this series!
Thanks for this brother!
One verse comes to mind that a friend who left for the Orthodox tradition brought up to me a while back that, while it does not conflict with your points here, may be difficult for many to wrestle with and reconcile with the idea that scripture alone is the end stop for authority. In 1 Timothy 3:15, Paul commissions Timothy to get the church in order because it is "the pillar and foundation of truth" - The church, not the scriptures, is the foundation of truth here. Similarly, in Ephesians 4 it is the divinely gifted teachers, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, elders, and teachers, who guide and equip the saints - the church leaders, not scripture, is given for the equipping of the saints and teaching in knowledge and growth in unity.
Now, the meta look at this is to see that these commissions and guidelines for the church and church leaders are conveyed through scripture. That's important. But there does seem to be an important authoritative role given to the church itself in these things. Our Catholic and Orthodox friends readily accept scripture, but they see these passages about church authority and give a place of importance to that. On the other hand, the "every man and his Bible" approach of Protestantism and the Restoration that grew out of the Enlightenment (the same Enlightenment that grants authority to the governed through Rationalism, and props up divisive and revolutionary moves of leaving, either nation of church tradition, when the system no longer serves as the people think is right) - that individual approach to interpretation and teaching largely discredits any authority that the church has in favor of the written word.
I'm not yet sure what it is or at least how to articulate it, but there seems to be a middle ground we are missing.
I'd love if you could on this facet of the issue in this series.
Harris..Hope all is well where you are. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to draw, and you've identified what may be the strongest text on that side of the question. 1 Timothy 3:15 is honestly a better argument for church authority than Matthew 16, because the passage can’t get you to the Roman church on its own.
Now, back to 1 Timothy 3:15. Watch the metaphor: a pillar upholds and displays what it carries — it doesn't author the inscription. And Paul makes the statement in a letter of written instructions to the church. The pillar gets its orders in writing. I will have more on it in writing to come.